Christianity and prayers from christans!

I just opened a book that is a survey on diffrent nations needs of prayers from christans. it is a large thinking book that covers each and every nation around the world - western and eastern. The prayers of christians is the good deeds, since it is jesus that should heal and upright and formost cleans the people from their sins. When Eliah pleaded with God, God would not act before his prayers, and it did not rain for three years after Eliah prayed to God that he would make it stop rain! so prayers is the good deeds that we should walk in. This is revealed through the gospels were Jesus once were asked what people would do to do the Works of God - "this is the work of God that you may believe in him whom i sent" Jesus has already done the good deeds and all we need is faith in him for our salvation. But faith without deeds is dead. You see a man is justify by deeds and not only faith. And prayers are those deeds! When we pray, God acts. And i add, God can act without prayers as he did in Genesis 1, and through the words he sent to the prophets but that is a diffrent thing. The reason why we must pray inorder for God to act, even though he can act without prayers, is because God is spirit, and words form the spirit. So if God is in you, You will be able to form the spirit through your prayers!

If we go back alittle, in this book it mentioned east eurpean Albanian who is a communsit nation which is the only east european who do not tolerate religion!

Not a bad thought, except that praying is a silly waste of time.

Kreel, while I agree with you in some respects, I simply cannot agree in all of them. I have had a few experiences in my life in which I trully believe praying did something - altering the physical and spiritual situation I was praying in. Perhaps it is just me - but in my experience prayer has often been a profound experience in times of distress.

I feel compelled to mention this because just tonight I was attending my cousins wedding. Our pastor who is a long-time family friend (he wed my parents and baptized me) did the service. At the reception he collapsed right in front of me, hitting the floor unconscious. Considering that he is in his 80's, those who witnessed it couldn't help but consider the worse.

Regardless, myself and my sister's boyfriend are both CPR/First Aid certified and rushed to his side to find that he was breathing. As we called 9-11 he regained consciousness and was responsive. Once we realized that I went over and joined my family as we gathered around his elderly wife and said a prayer for him. While we all stood around this woman and prayed there was absolutely a 'spiritual' presence there with us, something that I can't deny because I recognized it while it was occuring as being such an interesting sensation. To make a long story short he was taken to the hospital and the last I heard was that he was in stable condition and they are still trying to figure out what happend. If I had to venture a guess I would go with simply fainting, but it could have been something more serious.

But the point I am trying to make is that I do see a distinction between some prayers and others. Some prayer is absolutely a waste of time. But I really believe that when someone asks for that 'presence' to be with them - and that request is true and honest, that incredible things can happen. Whether or not our prayers helped the pastor's physical situation is unknown, but it surely brought peace to those who witnessed it, including myself and especially his wife.

Nice story but may I just point out that you rushed to help him yourself first and only after did you pray. How absurd would it be to do have done it the other way around? Certainly you must agree with that.

Those going on about the 'power of prayer' most often are just as likely to seek the aid of medical science as anyone else. Most reasonable Christians are horrified when they hear the occasional horror story of how a couple let their child die when they refused medical treatment and relied only on prayer.
So how much do you really believe it works?

Now if you mean that it helps you on a personal level, well that I understand. Some people find comfort in mediation or prayer or any number of things. Sometimes talking to yourself is a good way to sort things out and my personal philosophy is 'life is tough, do what helps you make it through the day just so long as your not hurting anyone.' Of course lets not pretend that prayer is in any way a substitute for action and frankly I just don't understand why prayer, or belief for that matter, is considered by a good many people as something that makes one a good person in and of itself.

You seem like a reasonable guy so could you perhaps explain that to me?

Closest I came was my Sister-in law. She was a victim of all but uncontrolled grand mal epilepsy. My wife and I were taking her to visit my family and she went into full seizure mode. I rendered what first aid I could paraying all the while. She regained consciusness shortly there after and remained clear and lucid with no more seizures the rest of the day. At that time she normally experienced 10 to fifteen sieizures of varying degree every day so to be seizure free for that length of time was an anomaly of the first order.

Oh and prayer doesn't make you good in and of itself.

I'm glad to hear your sister is OK.


But here's a question for you and please don't take it the wrong way:

If she had had more seizures would you have blamed god? When something good happens it's god but when something bad happens then it just happens. And if god helped her not have additional seizures, why couldn't he have prevented the first one? Why would a loving caring god give someone such a illness? If you believe it's just nature than you take it for what it is, there is no one to blame, but if it's gods will then I must ask you what type of sick sadistic asshole is your god?

Oh and prayer doesn't make you good in and of itself

Here we agree. And what about faith, does that make one more moral? Many believers do think that, you know. How often do you hear the phrase "(s)he's a christian" as a catch-all phrase meaning that one is a good person? It's rather common. I had someone say it to me last week and as a nonbeliever myself, I'm sure you understand why I find that quite annoying. I try to live a moral life, treat people right but because I don't believe in gods should that make me any less moral than the next person? I don't think so, but many do. If anything I find atheism to be a far more moral viewpoint simply because it demands one take complete responsibility for ones actions. There is no 'god's will' and asking JC for redemption, only you are responsible for you and no imaginary deity can forgive me if I murder someone and on the flip-side no deity is watching me masturbating and judging me for that either. Religion is a cop-out.

Quick correction (the edit function doesn't seem to be available any longer)

I shouldn't have said "I find atheism to be a far more moral viewpoint", what I really meant is that I find it to be more honest . . . or perhaps sincere is better still.

I'm not sure if there is a God persae or several or none. I was raised Catholic and attended parochial schools for 9 years. Good educational building blocks. About the only time I go to church (any) is for funerals or weddings. All that being said I have had an experience that makes me wonder if there isn't something out there directing us all.

Back in the early 70's, there was a bar I frequented called Marek's Cafe in Hulmeville, Pa. The owner, Tony Marek was what you might call an avid hunter and fisherman most of his life. The bar was decorated at random with trophys from salt water tournaments that Tony had won over the years plus a few stuffed Marlins.
I stopped in to have a beer and a sandwich one Saturday morning after mowing the lawn and had just got my first beer when a guy walked in and sat at the bar and ordered his. I didn't recognize him as Mareks was sort of a neighborhood workingmans shot and beer type of bar.
The guy sipped his beer and looked around at all the trophy's and commented that someone likes to fish. I immediately ordered 3 more beers for myself as I knew once Tony started talking fishing all other activity behind the bar came to a halt. I got my beers before Tony got started, and sure enough these two started in on fishing.
Before I go too far, I must explain, Tony was one of the anglers on a boat called the 'Pinball Bob' that had just won the Atlantic City Yacht Club White Marlin tournament. The boat was the smallest of the fleet that year, yet they won every prize catagory that could be had. Most fish, biggest, etc. The prize money was probably enough to pay for expenses and a party after, but mostly for bragging rights. Tony's daughter Maryellen had gotten all the news clippings together in a scrap book for Tony.
Back to the story.
This guy asked Tony if he had ever heard of the Atlantic City white marlin tournament. Tony said he had. The guy asked if he had heard of a certain boat out of Tom's River NJ. Tony said he hadn't but there are thousands of boats along the NJ shore.

This guy proceeds to tell Tony that he was an angler on that boat and went on to describe, almost to a 'T' what Tony's crew had done that year. I'm no fisherman but this got my attention. Tony looked at me and rolled his eyes, then calmly got out the scrapbook that his daughter had made up and spread it out on the bar in front of this guy. He said since you are interested in that tournament you might want to see this. He opened it up to the news paper clipping with the winning crew and pointed to his picture and said. Now that's me and I don't see you anywhere in the picture. The guy set his beer on the bar, did a 180 and walked out of the bar.
Neither Tony or I had ever seen this guy before.

That particular tournament that year had boats from Maine to Florida, somewhere around 95 boats. Odder still, when you think how many bars are there from Maine to Florida, what are the odds of someone comming into a bar that they had never been to before and making a lie like that?

Was this a lesson for him or others too? I have wondered to this day.

It's a natural human tendency to see patterns where none exist, to try to make sense of the chaos. When coincidences happen it is more than natural to thinks that a force might have made it so. Shit, even I find myself thinking 'the universe' is acting for, or against me sometimes, but I know that this most likely just isn't so.

In a universe where there are more stars than grains of sand on our planet, would some all knowing force really be so concern about us? There is something like 170 billion galaxies in the observable universe, with 200 to 400 billion stars in our galaxies alone and out of the nearly infinite cosmos would a deity, or force, really be that concerned about your bar conversations?

Again it's natural to view oneself, ones country, ones species as the most important but if you really take a dispassionate look at it, it just can't be. I'm sure you're very important to your family and friends but in the grand scheme of things a lifetime, a millennium, an epoch even, is less than a blink in the cosmic eye. Some people might find that depressing but personally I think that fact the we, as a species, can even start to understand a tiny bit of our place in the universe is nothing short of amazing.

To take something so grand and reduce it to nothing more than outdated myths of some semi-nomadic tribe living 2000 years ago just cheapens the whole thing. Don't get me wrong, I find the whole religious impulse of our species to be completely and utterly fascinating, I love reading the creation myths of different cultures and to paraphrase a someone on NPR yesterday they 'offer valuable insights into the human condition.' The tendency of people to think that there is someone watching them, someone balancing the scales, "someone or something tending the light at the end of the tunnel", the impulse of people to get down on their knees and plead for help to an empty is sky, well it's just so utterly, so endearingly . . . human.

Yep, that's the human condition. I wonder what athiest do when they greet a beutiful sunrise or sunset? Or see something so utterly breathtaking that they have to take notice. Do they just take it for granted?
I personally don't get on my knees and pray for anything but when I do see something like one of the above I look up and say 'Thanks JC'. If I were a Muslim I think I would say thanks "Allah".

Just to be clear . . . that was a joke, right?

Nah, not trying to joke. Just curious.

I think the point is that humans have (for pretty much our entire existence as a civilization) felt that it was "natural" to be worshipful, or appreciative of some kind of divine force or energy.

So for 20,000 years or more, we've been worshiping some kind of deity. Who are we now, in the 21st century, to decide that we've been wrong? We think we're so advanced and full of knowledge. But in another 200 years, we'll be looked back upon by future civilizations as primitive. Perhaps we will discover a new means of looking at the Quantum universe (for example) that will reveal the "fingerprint" of god?

patom wrote: I wonder what athiest do when they greet a beutiful sunrise or sunset? Or see something so utterly breathtaking that they have to take notice. Do they just take it for granted?
I personally don't get on my knees and pray for anything but when I do see something like one of the above I look up and say 'Thanks JC'. If I were a Muslim I think I would say thanks "Allah".

Honestly this is so silly I don't even know where to began.

Do only Christians and Muslims have the ability to appreciate a sunset, or is it all believers?

How exactly would being an atheist effect someones aesthetic appreciation?

Wouldn't someone with a naturalistic worldview be in fact more incline to appreciate the beauty of the natural world?

J.B. wrote:I think the point is that humans have (for pretty much our entire existence as a civilization) felt that it was "natural" to be worshipful, or appreciative of some kind of divine force or energy.

So for 20,000 years or more, we've been worshiping some kind of deity. Who are we now, in the 21st century, to decide that we've been wrong? We think we're so advanced and full of knowledge. But in another 200 years, we'll be looked back upon by future civilizations as primitive. Perhaps we will discover a new means of looking at the Quantum universe (for example) that will reveal the "fingerprint" of god?

And for most of our history we also believed the Earth was flat and the center of the universe. For most of our history we believed in witches, countless women were tortured and killed under that false belief. We believed that a man could tell the future by looking at intestines of a slaughtered animal. We believed all illness was caused by spells and evil spirits until germ theory came along. In short, we believed a lot of strange things that were never true, and many many people died over these crazy ideas.

But perhaps we shouldn't feel too bad about it, we were doing the best we could. We couldn't know any better so we came up with ideas to make sense of the universe with the tiny amount of knowledge we did have. We weren't to blame back then. But now we do have a slightly better idea of how the universe works, should we throw aside all the knowledge we paid such a high price for and go back to burning women at the stake?


And if you expand the definition of the word 'god' to the point it's utterly meaningless then I suppose you'd see his "fingerprints".

We haven't believed the earth was flat for most of our history hell some ancient Greek dude calcualted the diameter of the earth witnin a mile or two sometime before Christ. The Bible phrase, as is now known by most Biblical scholars, "the four corners of the earth" didn't mean even they thought the earth was flat and square it was just a poetic way to say all of it.

Much as when the number seven appears it generally means all of them or the perfect total. The ancient Hebrews used numbers for a lot more things and in a lot more ways than we do today.

Nope faith doesn't necessarily make you any better than anyone else. One doesn't earn salvation. It is an act of mercy on the part of God. As a Christian you aren't supposed to compare your actions to those of anyone other than Christ. Put it this if you rob a bank and get caught because you stopped while making your get away to rescue a baby from a burning building. You are no less guilty of bank robbery but the judge may be significantly less desposed to throw the book at you.

No Good deed you do makes you one whit less guilty of the least wrong you have done. Such is the theology that I have figured out.

Unknown wrote:Nice story but may I just point out that you rushed to help him yourself first and only after did you pray. How absurd would it be to do have done it the other way around? Certainly you must agree with that.

Sure, I agree.

Unknown wrote:Those going on about the 'power of prayer' most often are just as likely to seek the aid of medical science as anyone else. Most reasonable Christians are horrified when they hear the occasional horror story of how a couple let their child die when they refused medical treatment and relied only on prayer.

Yea, to me that shit is just ignorance. It makes more sense to me to pray when things are beyond your control. To not exercise things that can be controlled or acted upon (like medical attention in this case), is pretty damn stupid.

Unknown wrote:Now if you mean that it helps you on a personal level, well that I understand. Some people find comfort in mediation or prayer or any number of things.

Yup. That's basically what I am saying. Though I would add that while meditation is a very personal experience, prayer is something that can be shared to help others on a personal level.

Being as I'm a selfish old geezer. I pray to hit the lottery all the time.

LOL!

PhunkyPhishStyle wrote:
It makes more sense to me to pray when things are beyond your control.

Ok, I guess I undersatnd that, as a way to feel like you've done something when you have no other options.

Though I would add that while meditation is a very personal experience, prayer is something that can be shared to help others on a personal level.

Interesting thought, prayer as a form of bonding, is this what you mean?
I'll just stick to weed, thank you very much.

Although you made some valid points about how it might make you feel better or feel closer to others, you've yet to mention one very important factor, the most important in my opinion: Is it true? If it was completely harmless then who would care if it's true or not and perhaps it's a harmless crutch in your life but people actually devote their lives to this shit, people die over it, so maybe whether it's true should matter.